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 Was it my choice to post this?

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Blaeu
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PostSubject: Was it my choice to post this?   Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:07 am

I want you to put aside what you currently believe as true, have faith in, or have dismissed as being absurd. I want you to consider that what most believe to be part of humanity, may not be a part at all. Are you free to decide your own path? Or has your path been decided for you? Do you even have a choice in what to believe in? Are the thoughts going through your head right now of your own choosing, or were they predetermined before the concept of time even existed?

These are the things I will be discussing here. I will be telling you my personal beliefs, with supported facts. You can feel free to attack anything I say, just don't attack me and I will offer you the same. Let's get started.

Part One: Understanding

As I stated in my preface, please place aside what you currently believe and attempt to see things from my point of view. It will be a lot more interesting and educational if you do. We start with my favorite sport, baseball. I'm playing left field getting ready for the pitch. My knees are bent and my eyes are focused. The pitch is made, the bat is swung and *crack*, the ball flies high into the air. I start to run forward. Faster and faster as I track the ball with my eyes. I stop, wait for it, and make the catch.

How did I do that? How did I know where the ball was going to land? Well, I took the information I knew and put that all together to predict where the ball would land. I saw how hard the batter swung the bat, I saw how high the ball went and how fast it was moving. I know how gravity affects the ball and for that matter, I know that the wind is not blowing. With all of these factors, I was able to predict where the ball was going to land. If I could measure all of these factors, and had the time to do a few calculations, it would be less of a prediction and more of a certainty. If you know all the variables in a given situation, you will be able to predict the outcome. We are now going to take this process and apply it to a much larger scale.

We will now discuss the universe as a whole. Every star, planet and person. Let's assume for the moment that everything can be quantified. The weight of a planet, energy a star produces, a black hole, and the human consciousness. We may not be able to fully understand or quantify each of these examples currently, or potentially ever. But, even if we as a race of humans never are able to quantify something, that does not mean that something is not able to be quantified. Now, if we quantify everything, and are able to measure each and every particle of matter and burst of energy at once, we will then be able to predict the outcome of each interaction in our universe because every single variable is known to us.

Now, how does this apply to me, you, or anyone else? Well, there is a major consequence of being able to predict everything. That consequence is that everything has already been determined and that eliminates free will. Now lets take a small break and look at two definitions of free will:

1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Read both of those definitions and let them sink in. I would like to add a third definition on free will that is worded to apply more directly to this conversation.

3. the ability to create action that cannot be foreseen

Now, when I say foreseen, I do not mean your mom could not foresee you sneaking out and going to that party as a senior in high school. I mean on a grand scale, you have the ability to create new energy, or destroy energy. To take an action that cannot be quantified as if something is unable to be quantified, then prediction is impossible. This leads me back to my first assumption, "let's assume for the moment that everything can be quantified." Well, if we assume that to be true, there is no free will.

Your first thought may be, "wait, I am free to do what I want, when I want." Then you probably made a fist, stuck out your tongue, and shouted, "cow monkey bean boy wabawaba woo." Well, I may have gotten that wrong, but I don't currently have the ability to measure everything in the universe all at once. What you are experiencing is pseudo-free will. You think you have total control of your actions because no observable force is controlling you. You don't have enough information to even begin to see how your actions can be predicted. But, just as in baseball, once you have enough information, you can predict the outcome.


Part Two: Feedback

There will be many of you who disagree with part of all of the above.

There are basically two different ways to attack this theory.

1. There is something that cannot be quantified. Say your soul.

2. "There is no possible way to measure everything all at once. Have you heard of the uncertainty principle?"


I would like to briefly address both of these points before I finish.

1. This contradicts most religions currently practiced. Many religions have some sort of soul, some level of existence beyond our physical body. Without saying we do not have a soul, how could something such as a soul exist in our universe, and yet not be measurable? This would be the type of argument I would like to see, not just "god made me, free will exists."

2. Just because we are not able to currently measure something without changing it, does not mean it cannot be measured. Even if humanity never achieves the ability to measure everything, let alone all at once, all that would mean is that we will forever have our pseudo-free will, with only glimpses into our future. Our inability to complete the measurement is not an argument to support a theory of not actually being able to measure something.

This concludes my brief explanation of something that is troubling to me, and yet I believe. If you have read this far, I thank you and hope you have enjoyed this little trip into another persons thoughts. It is a bit shorter than I would have liked, but I actually wanted people to read it.

Any and all feedback is welcome.
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Slaya
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:50 pm

Afte reading this, you give me a whole new out-look on things and the way I approach some mental ideas I have. I don't have much to comment on because in a way you answered alot of the questions you displayed. I did enjoy reading this though and thank you for sharing with me some of your mental thoughts.
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Blaeu
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:52 am

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I have written a few papers on this topic in the past with more detail, but I was afraid of getting too complex in a post on this type of board. I have researched this type of meta-physics, physics, and philosophy for years, so if you, or anyone, have any questions, please feel free to ask.
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Grrrnade
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:26 pm

crap i knew i was forgetting to do something. i haven't read this yet
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:47 pm

Here's an idea for you all:

I'm Catholic, but I don't really believe in Free-Will. I think the Human brain uses cognitive responses to problems or questions, and that it always chooses the option that will grant it the most pleasure, or that your desire will be most fulfilled with that decision. That's Determinism, I believe, but I add another thing to it: If the brain is always using a cognitive response, then yeah you're always set out on a course. although you may think you're changing your desire, perhaps your desire is to change your desire, and you don't realize it.

Or, perhaps you CAN change your desire, therefore it wouldn't be Free-Will, but it WOULD be pretty close, close enough to be reffered to as a sort of Free-Will.

Howz about that?
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:52 pm

I apologize for not reading your post before posting mine. I suppose what I believe is a form of your "Psuedo-Free Will". I don't have much time to talk right now, but I would like to continue this sort of discussion sometime later.
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thezachster
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:33 pm

i really beleive i have free will and all

but it is always fun to imagine im just a sim. Right now the player clicked on use computer
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:49 pm

If your brain only does what it desires, or what will please its desires most, how do you have free will? It's not your consciousness making the decision, it's your brain doing what it thinks it wants or what it thinks will help itself the most.

I suppose that you could CHANGE what you desire, but even then, it might just be you having the desire to "change" your desire.

It's pretty deep stuff, man.
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Blaeu
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 am

All humans are selfish beings. Every action they take is to make them happy, or to satisfy them.

Even if you are doing something you hate, you are probably doing it to look good, feel better about yourself, allow you to "relax" without feeling guilt, or impress someone. Under every action you take, there is always a selfish reason for you to take it.

Sure, life might seem more meaningful if people have free will, but that is just wishful thinking.

For anyone who thinks they do have free will, think about why you think that. What makes you believe you do have free will? Religion? Do you need to have it or life is meaningless? Or, do you feel that you have free will because that is what other people have told you.

Most people who believe in free will have never really taken the time to truly think about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:51 pm

That reminds me, Blaeu, about an experiment that was conduicted on some...I think they were prisoners, or something...Anyway, they were put in individual rooms, with like, no contact or anything for years, until their bodies just totally shut down, due to the lack of purpose.

This is interesting, as it reflects on the need for humans to have purpose, or else they just stop.

"Most people who believe in free will have never really taken the time to truly think about it."
Sadly, this statement is extraordinarily true. Most people that believe in things, such as free will and religion, are just sheeple that follow blindly whatever they were taught, especcially as children. It's sad, really...people just take for granted whatever they're taught as true, and never second geuss it.

Stupid humanity, and it's ignorance.

<_<
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:44 am

what if humanity was an accident.

a Perfect celestial accident to create life.

our galaxy might be a binary star system with a brown dwarf sun they found.

I also wonder sometimes why the mind is infinite like the universe.

Never ending spiral of mother nature and life is what i like to tell myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:30 pm

The mind is infinite?
The universe is infinite?

Perhaps not, as you really can't prove something is truly infinite. All you can say is that you've never reached the end, or the limit, or the capacity.

Infinity is a fickle thing, indeed.
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Blaeu
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:46 pm

The only truly infinite thing we know to exist is human stupidity.
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:28 am

Hah, you gots me good mastah! ^
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PostSubject: Re: Was it my choice to post this?   Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:57 am

Haha, Blaeu, that's too true.

But, really, it's impossible to prove something infinite. All you can prove is that it's so huge (or so small) that no one has found the ending of it.
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