Blaeu's Awesome Posse

Now being used for Conduit 2, check the Xat chat in the Portal to see who's on.
 
HomePortalCalendarFAQMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog inGameFAQs

Share | 
 

 No Spawn Camping

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Unicorn Slayer
MP5
MP5


Posts : 13
Join date : 2009-08-28

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:39 am

damn this is a heated debate, i remember the first unrreal tournaments and how the broadcasters would yell out Spawn camped, Oh yet again, Oh and he bunny hops out of it, 10 years later the conduit came out with its failure of A decent spawn system and lack of a round system with freeze time.

Its funny how the norm cannot change.

Spawn camping is inevitability there.
Back to top Go down
Warr!0r
TPC Launcher
TPC Launcher
avatar

Posts : 32
Join date : 2009-07-29
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:42 am

"So many times when a team spawn camps, it is because they just "fell" into that position. It was not their intention, but they just manage to kill everyone while invading a base (which they were only doing because the other team was camping there).

I think it takes a lot of effort to take a base and kill everyone and then continue to kill everyone as they spawn. If done correctly there is little the other team can do about it, but it is very hard to do correctly for long periods of time. I feel like it takes a lot of effort to set this up and execute it at will."

I agree with this yet I still think it's cheap.

My definition of cheap for this conversation includes: giving yourself an unfair advantage. I think we both know what I mean when I say cheap. (no need to quote me from a GF topic)

Cheap is all relative to the situation. If I'm playing my friend who is a nub, and I give it my all - causing him to lose really badly, I'm being cheap. Even if I'm only using Hive Cannon. If he sucks and there is clearly no way he can defend himself, I'm being cheap.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Blaeu
Map Maker
Map Maker
avatar

Posts : 82
Join date : 2009-07-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:55 am

An "unfair" advantage? WTF?

What do you consider a fair advantage? I'm not talking about playing a bunch of noobs here (not saying you implied I was), I'm playing against skilled players. How is going into their base unfair? They failed to stop it, I took the advantage, and now they are suffering the consequences.

At what point does taking the red garage in the streets become unfair? Or taking the high ground? What about using the WP and staying out of site? Or using the DA and implementing "shoot and run" tactics?

Of course spawn camping gives you an advantage, that is why it is done. I explained how it was not cheap, then you defined spawn camping as "unfair" and called it cheap again.

So, explain to me how preparing, executing, and holding a spawn camp strategy is unfair? Explain to me how their team failing to see what is happening, failing to stop an invasion of their base, and failing to kill us as well kill them is unfair.
Back to top Go down
Warr!0r
TPC Launcher
TPC Launcher
avatar

Posts : 32
Join date : 2009-07-29
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:07 am

The process of taking over a base is not cheap. Staying there is.

I'm not a big fan of holding down a position. If we are talking about games where both teams are good and are executing strategies to win, (eg. clan wars) then I'm all for getting and holding positions. However in any other scenario I would rather just play. This is just a video game. If the sole purpose was to win then securing the lead and playing defense would be the best option. If the goal is to have fun + win, then holding a position or "camping" (as I like to call it) a building just isn't on my agenda.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Blaeu
Map Maker
Map Maker
avatar

Posts : 82
Join date : 2009-07-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:24 am

I can accept that. You don't have to like it, or enjoy doing it, but that is not the same as it being unfair.

In our standard BAP games I rarely hold a position or camp. As you've stated before, I tend to make someone come to me because that gives me the advantage, however they can always go kill someone else. That is how I have fun though; I enjoy playing "cat and mouse" and making a move.

Not every tactic or strategy is fun, nor should it be used in a casual game. However, that does not make spawn camping cheap, unfair, or unstoppable.
Back to top Go down
Warr!0r
TPC Launcher
TPC Launcher
avatar

Posts : 32
Join date : 2009-07-29
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:01 pm

I'm not sure as though I'm being clear enough. I don't think fun is relative to whether something is cheap or not. We enjoy different play styles, I have no problem with that. After all it would be boring if everyone was doing the same thing.

I will clearly state how I feel. If we are in a clan war, we should play "cheap" or "unfair". In a regular match there is no need to play in ways that are not fun for the opposition. Losing sucks bad enough as it is. No need to lose from spawn camping too.

It's fun to rush a base, take it over, then hold it down as long as you can. If you are the one taking it over. It's not fun to have your base taken over and then die as soon as you spawn until sheer luck prevails.

I don't care if clan wars aren't fun. That's what we do for the competitive side of us. When we win the fun comes from that.

If you're sitting on the couch playing with a buddy and he completely dominates you, it's hard to stay enthralled in the match. If you want to keep playing you usually tell him to stop what he's doing because it's not fun for you. The same thing applies here. In a clan war no matter what is happening, you are into it. So I view it differently. I can't class them together.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Blaeu
Map Maker
Map Maker
avatar

Posts : 82
Join date : 2009-07-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:55 pm

For the most part I agree with your post. However, it doesn't really say much to the cheapness or unfairness you claim spawn camping to be. It just talks about what can be fun or not fun from your perspective.

It's not fun to have your base taken over and then die as soon as you spawn until sheer luck prevails.

Luck has nothing to do with it. Moving past everything I've said is required to become spawn camped, getting out of it quickly takes a lot of skill. Knowing where to move, who to target if you have to stand your ground, or where to hide until your teammate arrives. There is no more luck involved in getting yourself out of a spawn camp than any other aspect of the game.

You don't find it fun to lose? Especially when being spawn camped and your team has no idea how to get out of it? Yeah, I wouldn't either. I think I understand exactly what you are saying, but just because it can ruin the fun or someone else does not make it cheap or unfair either.
Back to top Go down
Warr!0r
TPC Launcher
TPC Launcher
avatar

Posts : 32
Join date : 2009-07-29
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:17 pm

If skill was the way to get out of a spawn camp, then you wouldn't have died 5 times during your escape from your own spawn camp scenario. Skill plays a factor in all parts of the game, but it plays a very small part in getting out of a spawn camping situation.

Let me ask you this. Do you like nade spammers? If no, why not? The reason I don't like nade spammers is because they aren't fun to play with. Why aren't they fun to play with you ask? Because they are cheap.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Blaeu
Map Maker
Map Maker
avatar

Posts : 82
Join date : 2009-07-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:36 pm

I don't like nade spammers because they are not fun. Why are they no fun, because it is a very powerful "style" of play and can be hard to counter. However, the reason I ban nades, the reason I hate that style is because it takes no skill to spam frag grenades.

I would call it cheap because it does not take skill. My five-year-old could stand in a room and spam frags at you. Something that is effective and requires little to no skills to execute, in combination with little to no planning is considered cheap by me.

"See someone, spam frag, refill frags, repeat," is a very cheap tactic. No planning needed, no skill required. That is one of the few cheap tactics I see in this game.

Something like spawn camping takes a lot of skill to execute and planning to do it correctly. The results can be seen as a very large advantage, but it took a lot of work to get to that point. Also, once at that point it takes a lot of work to stay at that point.

As for getting out of a spawn camp, I died five times because Randall quit. I was outnumbered 3-1 with WPs in the infirmary. So sorry I'm not THAT skilled. Wink

With even teams it is no where near as hard to escape. The hardest would be streets due to how close all the spawn locations are, and even then unless you spawn on the starts, you just leave the base. If they follow you, that makes it that much easier for a teammate to kill or escape. If you plan it out, there is very little luck.

In this game, luck only exists if you fail to plan far enough ahead.
Back to top Go down
Warr!0r
TPC Launcher
TPC Launcher
avatar

Posts : 32
Join date : 2009-07-29
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:29 pm

"Something like spawn camping takes a lot of skill to execute and planning to do it correctly. The results can be seen as a very large advantage, but it took a lot of work to get to that point. Also, once at that point it takes a lot of work to stay at that point."

Personally I don't think it takes a lot of skill to take over a base. We do it all the time in our private games. We rush in and kill everybody. It does take some skill, but not that much. As for it taking a lot of work to stay there, again I completely disagree. It is very easy to kill people as they spawn, one by one, when there are 2 or 3 of us in the base. When we play you are very aware of what's going on. Now keeping this in mind, why would you attempt to gain control of a base that has itself well defended. You wouldn't. You would wait for a better time to take it over. This alone lowers the skill involved.

I was just in a public match. We spawn camped their base in Bunker. We were winning 22-7 within the first 5 minutes, and I had a 10 killstreak. All but 3 of their team left. A couple people who left joined back in. Only to leave again. They left because they were being spawn camped. I probably would have done the same. Sure I could have gotten out of it. That doesn't mean it's no longer cheap. You can get away from grenade spam, doesn't mean grenade spam is no longer cheap.


"With even teams it is no where near as hard to escape. The hardest would be streets due to how close all the spawn locations are, and even then unless you spawn on the starts, you just leave the base. If they follow you, that makes it that much easier for a teammate to kill or escape. If you plan it out, there is very little luck."

With even teams Rolling Eyes How often do you see two even teams spawn camping each other?

Of course you just leave the base. It's what you do on streets, it's what you do on bunker, it's what you do on infirmary, etc. Whether or not you escape is all determined on where you spawn. If you spawn where they are waiting, they kill you. Maybe you'll damage one or two. If you're lucky you'll kill one. If you manage to spawn far enough away from them, then you're golden. I don't know about you, but that seems an awful lot like luck to me.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Unicorn Slayer
MP5
MP5


Posts : 13
Join date : 2009-08-28

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:13 pm

Yall should do a survey in a creditable gaming league other then GB asking what there point of view on spawn camping is.

It'll help with knowing if its 101 basics or cheap.
Back to top Go down
Blaeu
Map Maker
Map Maker
avatar

Posts : 82
Join date : 2009-07-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:10 pm

I've already proven that it is not cheap in TCon, Warrior just does not want to accept it. Wink

Also, you have to assume teams are even. WTF?! How can you unbiasedly analyze something such as spawn camping when you have variables such as uneven teams? You have to assume that both teams are even in number, skills, and over all competence. It will not always be allocated in the same manner as your team because you are not playing a mirror of yourself, however we need to eliminate all other factors the would impact how easy or hard it would be to spawn camp, or escape it.

Re-read my two "main posts" where I make my case about spawn camping and assume it is 3v3, TR, and evenly skilled teams. Don't factor in fun, don't factor in how it makes the other team feel, and don't factor in your personal play style. Just look at what it would take to mount a successful spawn camping mission. It takes skill, teamwork, and smarts.

View the "escaping" team in the same light. It is much easier to prevent your team from being spawn camped than it is to escape once it is in place. However, once you are being spawn camped, your skills, smarts, and teamwork will allow you to escape it as it is easier to escape than it is to keep.

It might not be fun, it might make people quit, some might even "frown" upon it, however it is far from being cheap or unfair.

Suck it.
Back to top Go down
Warr!0r
TPC Launcher
TPC Launcher
avatar

Posts : 32
Join date : 2009-07-29
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:23 pm

I'm afraid you're in the minority here Blaeu. May I present to you this link. Whether you find it cheap or not is your personal preference. After some reading you will see that the majority of people would not agree with you.


http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=spawn+camping&btnG=Google+Search&meta=lr%3D&aq=f&oq=

_________________
Back to top Go down
Blaeu
Map Maker
Map Maker
avatar

Posts : 82
Join date : 2009-07-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:35 am

I read a lot of articles supplied to me by that link, and I fail to see the relevance. Most articles are just more people whining about why they hate it. Boo hoo.

Basically, I didn't find anything about spawn camping on TCon. It is important to differentiate spawn camping between TCon and other games as they are set up differently. Every single point I've made is related directly to TCon and how that game is set up and balanced. It is also in the context of no grenades (as with them, the person who spawns has a greater chance of escape).

In other games I may agree that spawn camping is unfair due to spawn location, starting weapons, power ups within the level, etc.
---
As a separate point, how many levels can you actually spawn camp in this game? Say you are playing 3v3 TR.

You can camp Streets, Bunker, and Pentagon to an extent. All the other levels have the spawn points too spread out, or too many walls between them.

The only level where I would even consider spawn camping a viable attack strategy is Streets, maybe Infirmary if everyone has a WP. So really, a team only needs to plan a strategy to escape a spawn camp on a single level, as bunker is pretty easy to get out of.
Back to top Go down
Warr!0r
TPC Launcher
TPC Launcher
avatar

Posts : 32
Join date : 2009-07-29
Location : Canada

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:24 am

"I read a lot of articles supplied to me by that link, and I fail to see the relevance. Most articles are just more people whining about why they hate it. Boo hoo."

Are you sure you read all the articles. You seem to be leaving out the parts where entire new systems have been implemented into games to prevent spawn camping. The few moments of invulnerability you get after spawning was born out of spawn camping. This is a problem developers face in making games. If that doesn't scream out "not intended" I don't know what does. There are servers for PC games that kick people for spawn camping. I don't know how much more evidence you need to understand that very few and I mean VERY FEW people will agree that spawn camping isn't really cheap and nooby.

You have valid points. However, the general opinion of spawn camping is that it a "scrub" "noob" "cheap" etc. tactic. I have spawn camped people many times. It is very cheap. When I do it I know I'm being cheap. It makes no difference if it only works well on a couple maps. You can look at it like grenade spamming, sure it's a viable option, sure I can use it, but it's still a cheap noob tactic. I can beat grenade spammers too, but I shouldn't have to in order to enjoy the game. If I spam grenades I may be having fun, but no-one else is. Same thing applies to spawn camping. Fun is not the sole contributor to whether something is cheap, but it does play a big part.

You are right that it's a viable strategy. I am also right when I say that spamming frags or camping with the SMAW is a viable strategy too. I don't however, expect any one else to enjoy the fact that I'm doing it. Nobody likes getting killed. Everybody hates being killed before they even have a chance to defend themselves. Spawn camping has been around far longer than tcon. It's been a problem long before tcon. I don't know if tcon is your first online shooter but I've known spawn camping to be a noob tactic long before I even owned a Wii.

I'll say this right now: defending spawn camping is the equivalent of nade spammers defending their nade spamming technique. We both know that nade spammers have every right to spam nades. We both feel as though it's incredibly nooby to do so. I feel no different with spawn camping.

I would like to add the section on spawn camping from wikipedia because I think it sums it up nicely.

One form of camping, considered by many players to be especially reprehensible, is spawn camping, also known as respawn or refresh camping. A spawn camping player guards the positions where players are brought into the map when they are just entering the game or when they are revived after being killed ("respawn"). In fast-paced games, the camper has the advantage in that they are able to kill players before they have a chance to collect their starting weaponry or even before they get their bearings and sometimes can shoot them in their back every time. Therefore many games have spawn protection system that gives newly spawned player some seconds of invulnerability, resurrects them at the least inhabited area of the map, respawns in a random location, or displays spawn campers' and enemies' locations on a minimap prior to a player spawning, so they are better prepared for the attack and can be found by already spawned players of the opposite team. Another mechanic employed in games is 'point spawning'. With this method, a player is spawned near a team-mate and not at a specific base. This is advantageous so that if base camping is detected by the game, the players are set to respawn elsewhere on the map. A disadvantage to this mechanic however is that sometimes a team-mate could be enganged with an enemy, resulting in you being vulnerable when spawning.

_________________
Back to top Go down
ICEing
Scrub
Scrub


Posts : 9
Join date : 2009-09-11

PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:18 pm

I glanced over this thread, so I didnt read every post here, but I'm going to insert my 2 cents here anyway.

Nade Spamming, Shotgun Cancel, Spawn Camping, SMAW Spamming, it's all legit. Cheap? Annoying? MaybeBut deal with it I mean if your good enough, you can overcome these things. Theres counters to every strategey. There is no sure-fire way to win. If someone nade spams, nade spam back, or if you can keep your distance, use long range. Now I can go on and on about this, but in the end I think some things in this game ARE cheap personally. I'm not going to state what they are nor WHINE about it, I simply DEAL with it. Its a game, meant to have fun and to enjoy. When you pick at and complain about stupid little strategies it takes the fun out the game, and it shows you whine about it because you cannot overcome it. Solution? TRAIN HARDER! be BETTER and OVERCOME it and you will be so good you will laugh at what troubled you before because now your better. Smile Just play the game for what it's worth. This excludes hacking and glitching, as these are EXTREME exploits not originally designed for the game
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   

Back to top Go down
 
No Spawn Camping
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Blaeu's Awesome Posse :: The Conduit :: Discussion-
Jump to: