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 No Spawn Camping

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PostSubject: No Spawn Camping   Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:05 pm

I just wanted to post this here:

From now on, if it's a small game (2vs2, 3vs3) and there is a "no nades" rule, I propose there should be a No Spawm Camping rule as well. I hate spawning in the middle of my base, alone, with 3 people shooting at me. I just wanted to say that I think if we have a No Nade rule, there should/must be a No Spawn Camping rule.

And this is not the first time it happens. An unfair match (2vs3) or even a fair match can't do a single thing unless it's Explosives (which we make it so it never is) or they can throw Grenades (which we've made a No Nade rule for almost every match). I hate to say this, but I can't stand playing private matches anymore because of it. If I end up playing a match and the other team is spawn camping, I will be throwing Nades like a madman or will probably end up leaving the game.

After playing 2 horrible... HORRIBLE public TO matches, I actually found that I wanted to play a public match over a private match... and that should never happen, especially not against the smart and skillful players in here...

Sorry about my ranting, but this has happened enough times that it actually pisses me off in real life, which I usually never let myself be that riled up from a simple video games...

Evil or Very Mad
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Mormon
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:00 am

Amen.
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:47 pm

I agree the spawns in this game give teams an unfair advange. A newly spawned person cannot defend against 2 or 3 or 4 players no matter their skill. However I think that is a complication we will have to overcome and hopefully will be fixed in TCon 2
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Ryudo Dragoon
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:56 pm

The only answer to this problem is going berserk with an OHKO gun. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:35 am

i have no problem taking out 2-4 guyz at once if i can use nades Smile 9i prefer more people for nades too )
but if thier really good or i miss them all i'm dead ...
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Blaeu
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:06 pm

Well, first dennies, grenades are off in these matches.

Second, spawn camping is just a part of the game. If the teams are even, you should be able to make a stand. Don't engage them, run away. Or, focus on killing one of them so they spawn back in their base. I might take three deaths to get them out of your base, but once you do, they have to re-take it in order to spawn camp.

Finally, like I stated in my last sentence, a team has to actually take your base in order to camp it. If they are good enough to do that, or you are foolish enough to abandon it, then deal with it.
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:02 pm

This is why TR fails
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Blaeu
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:55 am

Unicorn Slayer wrote:
This is why TR fails

Such a constructive comment.

Having just posted my reply on TR vs. TO strategy, I'm going to keep this short. Like I've already stated, it is your fault if you are getting spawn camped. Stop sucking.
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:38 am

nice work blaeu. Well said.
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:54 pm

Blaeu wrote:
Like I've already stated, it is your fault if you are getting spawn camped. Stop sucking.

Best. Quote. Ever.

I think I might sig that.
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Unicorn Slayer
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:44 am

Lol?

This game is non-constructive itself...soooooo?

And to further detail my comment i have never been spawn camped but i say it fails because sadly thats the only way to win in a TR.

I've spawn camped a team of 5 on TO streets and got a +20 streak, now i ask my self: damn what if i fight someone as lame as me and get spawn camped?

Then i see your reply and its like a stubborn OGL scrub claiming he does'nt have cheap antics.

No offense but nade spamming and camping spawn points shouldn't "become" an objective in a non-objective mode....same apply's to an FFA
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Warr!0r
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:07 am

OK here's how I feel about spawn camping. It's cheap, no doubt about it. Saying that you only get spawn camped if you suck is wrong. If I die at the other end of the level and respawn in my base with the other team already there and waiting for me, how did I put myself into that situation by "sucking". All I did was die and now I'm supposed to deal with people shooting me before I even have a chance to respond. Half the time the only way out is if you spawn outside of your base. And to say that someone should stop sucking to avoid spawn camping is silly. The same could be said to the spawn campers. If you can't kill people on a level playing field instead of when they barely have a chance to react: stop sucking. I'll give an example of what happens when I take over the Streets base. If I manage to kill the other team and have an opportunity to "spawn camp", I won't. I jump back across to the garage. Even staying in the garage feels cheap to me because I'm just waiting for them to spawn again.

Anybody who has played online multiplayer games for a decent amount of time will tell you that spawn camping is cheap. This is the reason you don't see many games with "set" spawn points for the whole team. If you have never played Team Fortress 2, then do yourself a favor and give it a try. The spawning in that game involves a "garage" of sorts where your team spawns after death. If the other team manages to gain control of your spawn point you are basically screwed unless you get a lucky shot with a powerful weapon. In The Conduit you have no option to use a "powerful" weapon because you are stuck with what is available in the chosen set.

If it made sense to have people spawning right next to each other we'd all spawn in the center of the map together. I'm positive that everybody here at one point or another has spawned right next to an enemy or two that weren't spawn camping and thought "damn, what a shitty spawn, there was nothing I could do." Or had an enemy spawn right behind you only to die before you even know he spawned there. By choosing to spawn camp a base you are essentially creating this scenario yourself, how that is not cheap is beyond me.

forgot to add that just because you are able to take over a base doesn't give you the right to be cheap. That's the equivalent of saying: If you get the SMAW you can spam it all you want. Sure there's nothing stopping you from spamming the SMAW now that you have it, but that doesn't make it any less cheap. If I make it to an ammo cache and decide to spam grenades is that cheap? Not according to your logic. It would be okay because "the other team was foolish enough to abandon it"

tl;dr - too bad, read it if you want to know what I said. Smile

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Blaeu
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:38 am

This reply is not directed at Warrior (I swear Wink ) or any person in particular.

I am fucking sick and tired of people whining about tactics being cheap. Everyone complains about spawn camping, camping, sniping, running away, taking cover, or using a good weapon. Shut up! I'm not going to run out into the middle of the map just to have a face to face fight with you. I'm not fucking stupid and I don't want to play that way. You know what, I'm fucking sick of people that don't take cover, that don't take a better position, or that try to take two people on by themselves. Stop playing so stupid and you couldn't complain so much! Since everyone likes to make post calling certain things cheap, I'm going to start making post calling people stupid.

Oh no! Did the whole team take over you base on the streets? Don't fucking fight them, run away, regroup, and take it back. Just because you spawn in your base with three enemies around the corner does not mean you have to go engage them. /rant

I will rarely spawn camp either, as i think it is dangerous. Usually, if I'm a position to spawn camp, it is better to wait "around the corner" in a better position that keeps you safe and try to jump a single target (especially because we play without grenades).

Say you are playing a 3v3 in the streets, weapon set does not matter. Either team can go spawn camp the other if wanted, and if you let them and suffer from it, that is your fault. You didn't HAVE to leave your base, you didn't HAVE to take up a sniping position in the garage, and you didn't HAVE to go switch your weapon allowing them to take a better position. You are in control of every action you take. A good TR team should take control of the map. They should force the other team to use certain tactic that your team can beat. You both start out with an equal opportunity, so if your team fails, get better. If you don't WANT to use a certain tactic, that is your choice so don't complain about it.

In BAP we have banned grenades, power weapons, and even explosives because we find that streamline the game and it is more fun to not use them. Until we ban spawn camping, ban sniping, or ban playing smart, use those tactics to win.

Again, I'm not being told a certain tactic is not fun, of that "you" don't like using a certain tactic. I'm being told that they are cheap and people that use them are "not good" or "cheap players." I don't know of a single tactic that cannot be beating with nades and power weapons off, so just because a team is forcing you to play a certain way, does not "break the game," it just means they are playing as a team, and a better one at that.

As you said warrior, "If I die at the other end of the level and respawn in my base with the other team already there and waiting for me, how did I put myself into that situation by 'sucking.'" It might not be your fault as an individual, however your team as a whole allowed that to happen. Where is the rest of your team if you are dying by a single person in their base while the rest of their team is in yours? Your team is either at a lower skill level (at least during that match) and they are dying instead of killing, or your tactics lost to theirs. They still had to take your base, and then kill you before they can spawn camp you. You know how you prevent it? You don't die, you don't let a bunch of them in your base, you don't spread your team so thin that they can pick you off one by one. If the rest of your team sucks, you're screwed. But, if we as PU are getting spawn camped, that is because we failed to prevent it. It is our fault (not to take away from the other teams ability and tactics) because we didn't stop them.

/second rant
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Unicorn Slayer
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:41 am

Bleau, you also stated spawn camping is apart of the game.

the same could be said about grenades something "you" despise. But no one says Stop Sucking when you go on a No grenade rant. Its apart of the game! Stop Sucking.

Well to sum it up, and im sure you hate this idea, spawn camp only if nades are on.
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:48 am

Btw, spawn camping in TO actually gives your team a secured passage to the ASE whereas in TR its just pointless unless thats considered controlling the map?
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:02 am

Haha, I don't hate grenades. I love them. However, I have just gotten used to playing without then and feel it forces people to actually have to aim rather than spam frags. The main reason I like no grenades is that it keeps the noobs where they belong. I got sick of having three people all start throwing frags at me and not fire a single shot. I can debate the game with and without grenades, but lets make another thread for that. Wink

Also, I've never had a problem with being spawn camped. Never. Is that because I am so much more skilled than everyone else? No. Is it because I know how to not be spawn camped? Yes. We are talking about a team game here, work as a team.

In TR, I assume people spawn camp to score a kill without giving the enemy a chance to strike back. It is possible a position thing depending on the map, however most of the time I would consider it a tactic to get kills. Also, it really only works in Human where it can be hard to beat a team of SPAS users with an MP5 or USP. In every other weapons set you start with a weapon strong enough to fight back.

That is the reason I don't like to spawn camp as a tactic. I will do it for one round, as it will usually force the team to spawn on their outer spawn points which separates them and allows my team to hunt them down one by one.

I think, for the most part, that spawn camping is a decent tactic, but no where near as effective as some people in this thread claim it to be. Grenades have nothing to do with spawn camping as if they were on, the team would just take better positions within the enemies' base to not get blown up.

If people would just take the time to think about why a tactic works, they can find a way to beat it.


(not proofreading again as it is too long and I'm still too tired to care)
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:13 am

Lol cool deal, good insight.

Now read the TR vs TO reply. i was in a better mood when writing that.

btw didnt mean to get on your bad side about a simple proccess of a game so lets squash it because your getting hectic with your vocabulary Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:28 am

I have read your TR vs. TO reply, and I will reply to it. I've just been getting my kids off to school or fed so I haven't had time. Also, you're not on my bad side, that's why I prefaced my first rant that I was not directing that at anyone. It just hit a nerve because so many people whine.

You have to keep in mind that I'm a strategist. My mind naturally considers as many variables as it can to plan the best course of action. I get tired of taking that course of action and people complaining that I didn't run out into the open to have a "skill off."

Anyway, I'll go focus on the other thread for now.
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Warr!0r
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:38 am

"I am fucking sick and tired of people whining about tactics being cheap."

Care to explain how spawn camping isn't cheap then?

My reasons for saying it's cheap are because you have to rely on luck of the draw for where you spawn or hopefully run away fast enough so the "spawn campers" can't kill you.

So far what I'm getting from you is that it's okay because the spawn campers shouldn't have been able to spawn camp in the first place. You can't seriously expect the other team to stay in their base the whole match for fear of being spawn camped.

*Warrior over wiispeak*: ok guys don't leave the base. If you do we could get spawn camped.
*warrior's teammates*: but we want to go out and actually kill people.
*warrior*: sorry if you do that you are stupid because you could also die yourself. if we get spawn camped because we venture out of our base it's our own fault, so let's just stay here to avoid that.

We can't go out alone because we will get outnumbered. We can't go out together because our base is left undefended. The only option left is to stay put.

does that sound logical to you? that's basically what you are saying should happen.


"You didn't HAVE to leave your base, you didn't HAVE to take up a sniping position in the garage, and you didn't HAVE to go switch your weapon allowing them to take a better position. You are in control of every action you take."

so i guess I HAVE to stay in my base because if I venture out I'm asking to be spawn camped. That is completely rediculous. That's no different than a camper saying: you didn't have to walk around that corner into my shotgun. That's right, I didn't HAVE to do it, but unless I want to stay in one room out of the whole level for the whole match I'm screwed. I guess. I deserve everything that comes to me.

*note to self* don't leave base or you risk facing consequences such as death or spawn campage


and to further explain why it's "cheap"
nade spamming - options = run away or die
spawn camping - options = run away or die

there is no legit way to defend against "cheap" tactics. that's why they are cheap.
running away is not a legit tactic to defend yourself, it's a last resort. something you do if no other tactic is available.

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Warr!0r
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:47 am

"Also, I've never had a problem with being spawn camped. Never. Is that because I am so much more skilled than everyone else? No. Is it because I know how to not be spawn camped? Yes. We are talking about a team game here, work as a team."

this may be part of why you don't think it's cheap. I have only been spawn camped a couple times. This gives me the advantage of seeing things from the "camped" person's perspective. I can tell you with first hand experience that being spawn camped is about as fun as being nade spammed.

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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:04 am

First let me reply to your second post warrior. I need to amend what I said. I've been spawn camped a few times, but it has never been a problem for me. The worst was Drudge Infirmary when it was 3-2 teams and I was with one other while the other team had three WPs. I was screwed. I died about five times before I finally killed one of them and took his WP. It sucked, but I got out of it (by myself too as Randall quit halfway through that, bastard).

We can't go out alone because we will get outnumbered. We can't go out together because our base is left undefended. The only option left is to stay put.

Not to over simplify your post, but I don't agree with your logic 100%. However, taking it at face value, you need to stop playing the victim. You feel like your only option is to stay in your base, but you have to keep in mind that the other team has the exact same thing to worry about. There is no perfect solution as it is adaptive to when the other team is doing. Like rock, paper, scissors, you need to adjust your strategies to best what you see coming from them. If you stick with the same thing all game long, they will adjust.

*note to self* don't leave base or you risk facing consequences such as death or spawn campage

As I've stated, what is the other team doing? Maybe if you apply pressure you'll drive them back into their base. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Instead of constantly thinking of how to prevent a team from doing something, think of a tactic you are going to do and make sure it gets done. Who cares if they are in your base if you are in position to snipe in either base?

I feel like you are taking an enemy strategy and letting it beat you before the game even starts. If I wanted to take your base, you'd have to leave or die. If I want to spawn camp you, you'd have to die. There are so many factors that go into setting up a team spawn camp that it is very easy to prevent, as long as you see it coming.

there is no legit way to defend against "cheap" tactics. that's why they are cheap.

That sounds like loser talk! Wink Outside of frag spamming while camping the Sanctum base, I cannot really think of a tactic you cannot defend against. Some are hard to overcome ones they have been implemented, but you'd have to give credit to the other team for getting their strategy in place. You didn't prevent it. It is like a chess game, sometimes you have to prevent or you are screwed. You need to balance attacking with defending.

Technically, even in Sanctum with grenades, they have to take the lead before they can camp. You just need to take the lead first.
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Warr!0r
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:14 am

"We can't go out alone because we will get outnumbered. We can't go out together because our base is left undefended. The only option left is to stay put."

this was intended as sarcasm because that's how I see your logic. :/

Also I still can't see where you explained how it's not cheap. I want to know what isn't cheap about killing people who aren't even sure where they are yet? How killing someone that has just spawned, before they even have a chance to communicate with teammates or defend themselves, isn't cheap? I agree that the team shouldn't let their base get spawn camped, but that has nothing to do with whether it's cheap or not.

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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:23 am

OK, from now on if someone gets spawn camped say this to your teamate to embarrass them:

"You let them walk right in and have a fucking tea party in our base"

Just dont be the team downer.
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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:29 am

"You let them walk right in and have a fucking tea party in our base"

If they were there for a tea party I wouldn't even try to stop them.
I'd be rushing off to get some crumpets so as not to be a rude host. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: No Spawn Camping   Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:30 am

That because I've decided to ignore all comments about tactics being cheap. Okay, not really, but I want to.

If your definition of something being cheap is still "takes little effort" than spawn camping is not cheap. If we were playing a 3v3 in streets and I wanted to make spawn camping our primary goal, here is how I would do it.

Step 1: Preparation

We need to get the weapons we will require to take the base, and hold the base. The we would need to get into position.

Step 2: Execution

We would then need to execute our plan to take their base while killing them in the process. We would need to know what to do if one of use died, or one of them got away.

Step 3: Hold it

So, we finally executed our plan, killed them all and took over their base. We now have to hold it. We need to coordinate our actions to take out members as soon as they spawn. We need to make sure someone does not spawn behind us as if one of us dies, it can weaken our position. We also have to know what our plan is if someone spawns outside and does not come to kill us.

Step 4: Re-group

They've finally managed to kill at least one of us and they are taking back their base. We need to re-group so the remainder of our team does not die. We also have to make sure they cannot start to execute their plan as we re-group.

Then start over at Step 1.

So many times when a team spawn camps, it is because they just "fell" into that position. It was not their intention, but they just manage to kill everyone while invading a base (which they were only doing because the other team was camping there).

I think it takes a lot of effort to take a base and kill everyone and then continue to kill everyone as they spawn. If done correctly there is little the other team can do about it, but it is very hard to do correctly for long periods of time. I feel like it takes a lot of effort to set this up and execute it at will.

So no, I do not feel like it is cheap. The purpose is to take away options from the other team, good for you if you can manage to pull it off.
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